Thanks to word of mouth, and its greatest ally, the Internet, Pollo Del Mar were well known and respected long before they released their debut CD, The Ocean Is Not For Cowards. Their shows in the Bay Area of northern California brought them strong words of praise from instro fans and fellow musicians, and the word spread. Their 7 inch 4 track EP, released two years ago, contained music that was deep, unpredictable, explosive, and heavily draped in turbulent emotion--not an easy trick for a band with no vocals.

[Pictured above, L-R: Jeff Turner, Jono Jones, Chris Thomas and Ferenc Dobronyi.]

Guitarists Ferenc Dobronyi and Jono Jones are one of the most creative one-two punches in instrumental music. Trading short solo bursts, they blend perfectly, each bringing new sounds to the genre by filtering influences from a wide range of genres. By the time those sounds are blended with Chris Thomas' intricate and tasteful drumming and Jefferson Turner's outstanding fretless bass work, the music becomes something altogether new, easily identified as Pollo Del Mar.

After a two year wait, The Ocean Is Not For Cowards was anything but a letdown. Anyone not convinced by the 4 track EP is most likely a Pollo Del Mar believer now. To those few people, we're proud to say "I told ya so." I had two years to prepare questions for this interview, and it was something I thought about quite often as I waited for that debut album to arrive. In the meantime, we managed to get Ferenc Dobronyi involved in Cosmik Debris twice--once as a participant in The Great Surf Summit (see the October and November '95 issues) and once as a featured writer (See "The Unified Wave Theory" in the January '97 issue). When the album finally arrived, I threw out most of the old questions because this music brought up brand new ones.

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Cosmik: Some people don't know this... Tell everyone what Pollo Del Mar means.

Ferenc: Chicken of the Sea!

Cosmik: How did you decide on that name?

Ferenc: Well, it was kind of a bad joke, much like the band in our earliest practices. We have had lots of problems with it. Most people pronounce it "Polo." If we had put just two more seconds of thought into it, we would have made our lives so much simpler and gone with "The (Plurals)."

Cosmik: Were you playing surf music prior to hooking up with Pollo Del Mar?

Ferenc: I was, but in a band I prefer a two guitar sound, so I had to find someone else who liked surf music too. Jono and I had been friends for years, but I didn't know he liked surf music. As soon as we revealed our secret passions, we started the band.

Cosmik: Your music seems to be layered in different styles, like surf guitars over jazz bass over fusion drums. What musical backgrounds did the other guys come from?

Ferenc: Jeff has the most trained musical background. He was in the jazz band at SF State, and still does casuals. In addition to playing fretless bass with us, he plays a standup. It should also be noted about Jeff that he played in many a high school hard rock band. He can play anything. Chris grew up in Brazil, so he has great interest in Latin rhythms and grooves. He had taken an eight year break from drumming before he came to Pollo Del Mar's rescue last year. Chris is really versatile, though the "Fusion" thing might make him laugh, and it gives me chills. Jono played in lots of arty punk bands, although he also played with a quasi surf band called "The Hobie Cats" when he lived in Albuquerque.

Cosmik: Maybe what I'm hearing as "fusion" is the combined effect between the bass and drums. You say the fusion thing gives you chills. Don't you think there's room for some fusion there, and are you saying you don't hear it in your music at all?

Ferenc: "Fusion" as a musical adjective makes me think of endless guitar solos over freeform rhythm sections. Also, I think "fusion" has forever disassociated people from jazz, which is a crime. I would like to think that you are talking about molecular fusion when you talk about our music. We do all bring very different things to Pollo Del Mar, and do try to incorporate them, but in general our songs have pretty tight arrangements. As far as guitar lines go, I really try to break out of the "Blues Box" and make up my own scales, but I always hope that they are perceived as melody rather than idle jamming.

Cosmik: What was the impetus for Pollo Del Mar's sound, and for playing surf in the first place?

Ferenc: To meet chicks?

Cosmik: Uhhh... uh huh. Yeah, that seems to be the consensus among surf musicians. It's a babe magnet.

Ferenc: Before I was in Pollo, I was trying to incorporate my surf tone into other kinds of music. And with Pollo, I try to incorporate other kinds of music into surf.

Cosmik: Which would you say comes easier to you? Incorporating surf into anything or incorporating anything into surf?

Ferenc: Well, luckily I don't have to compromise anymore. I really like the way Jimmy Wilsey worked with Chris Issak. He was always playing ethereal, slippery lines behind the moody lead vocal, and that would be a fun situation to explore one day.

Cosmik: Give me some examples. What sounds led you into which songs?

Ferenc: "Gate" is often pointed out as a song that changes gears from verse to chorus to bridge, from surf to ska and dub with some big guitar on the top. I never really heard the song as a series of disconnected parts though. If you take a walk, you encounter many obstacles in your path which you maneuver around or stop and enjoy, but at the end, you say that all you did was go for a walk. A song can be the same way, with lots of interesting paths to explore, but in the end it is just a song.

Cosmik: How would you describe Pollo Del Mar's sound?

Ferenc: Layered. Something to shake your butt, something for your head. Distinct interlocking parts of melody, counterpoint, and groove. Spiky and wet.

Cosmik: I've only been around the surf scene for about two and a half years, and for that entire time, Pollo Del Mar has been a part of it, but The Ocean Is Not For Cowards is your debut CD. What took so long between your seven inch EP and the CD?

Ferenc: Pollo Del Mar has been around for four and a half years. Aside from our musical activities, in that time there has also been: Four day jobs, two births, two weddings, three houses, crushing illness, grad school and a severe lack of funds. Life.

Cosmik: Jeez... Okay, let me rephrase it. How did you manage to release a CD at all?

Ferenc: Exactly!

Cosmik: Are you already thinking about the next release or should we expect a long wait?

Ferenc: I constantly think about the next release, and I wish we could start recording now, but we still have to deal with all of the extramusical affairs, which haven't gone away. We have about six songs ready to go. And we won't be doing any cover songs unless I get the rights in advance. The Zappa people held us for about three months on this one.

Cosmik: Okay, I wanted to ask you about that... The Zappa song is "Take Your Clothes Off," right? You've been doing that song since day one, but recording it is a different matter. Run down the events for us.

Ferenc: Actually the full title is "You Can Take Your Clothes Off When You Dance", but we edited it to fit on the CD sleeve. In the '60's you had a 12 inch LP jacket, so your song titles could be longer. I learned this song at our very first practice, but when it came time to record for the CD, we reworked it with some strong suggestions from our producer, Gary Mankin. We dropped a verse, added the loungey bit and a Middle-Eastern section. So the arrangement diverges pretty far from what Zappa had written, but I think it all works.

Cosmik: The Zappa family has a rep for being difficult to deal with and for being pretty fierce. Were you shocked by what you ran up against?

Ferenc: Well, as far as I can see, Mrs. Zappa holds her husband's music and his affairs in high order, and she doesn't want to see his life's work cheapened or exploited in any way. She is meticulous in her business management, and in the end, we were granted the right to use the song. We didn't want the Zappa Family to find out that we had put out one of his songs after the fact, so we approached them personally. They are not handled by BMI, ASCAP or The Harry Fox Agency, and take care of all of their own business affairs. I think that she saw that we were not mocking Zappa's work, and weren't going to advertise the CD as "Pollo Del Mar plays FRANK ZAPPA!!" So it took some time and perseverance, but we all got what we wanted.

Cosmik: I'm glad, because that was one of the things that really caught my attention early on. "Hey, this is an instro band that plays surf music AND covers a Frank Zappa tune!" It's not exactly old hat.

Ferenc: Yeah, but we do a pretty surf version of that song! The version of "Take Your Clothes Off" on Lumpy Gravy is one of Frank's surfiest songs, and in the chorus it has a "Tequila" feel to it. He obviously had some interest in the genre.

Cosmik: How did that get into your set?

Ferenc: Jono brought that song to the band. Rather insistently, I might add.

Cosmik: You were skeptical?

Ferenc: Well, I didn't think I was capable of playing anything that Zappa had written. When I was in college and learning to play guitar, Zappa was kind of the Holy Grail for musicians. Ya know - odd time signatures stacked on top of one another, impossible melody lines, a sprawling band, hard stuff for a guy whose primary interest at the time was punk rock. "Clothes Off" is probably one of Zappa's easiest tunes to play, but then, it is the only song of his that I have ever learned.

Cosmik: What do you think of it now, good and bad considered?

Ferenc: "Clothes Off" always, and I mean always, gets a positive reaction. People always ask about it - kids who dance to it, and old hippie types who simply cannot believe that we play this song. We've done it at every show that we have ever played and I still love it!

Cosmik: Do you find it something of a handicap to live and play in a city that already has The Mermen, especially playing a style that might put you in the same shows as them? Do they cast a long shadow?

Ferenc: The Mermen are San Francisco's number one band, for many years running. We are San Francisco's 463rd most favorite band. There is tons of competition for club gigs here. Also, I don't think that most of The Mermen's fans associate them with surf music. They really stand on their own as musical icons. They may have originally been inspired by surf music, but what they are doing now is totally original. They cast a long shadow in their passion for artistic freedom. Everyone should be as uninhibited as them.

Cosmik: Are you surprised by the backlash against them from some pockets of the surf community, by people who DO think they're at least trying to be a surf band?

Ferenc: No, I'm not surprised. But I think that people bring up the Mermen just to pick fights. The Mermen have said themselves that they are not playing surf music, so that should be it. I always call Pollo a surf band, because I don't know what else to say, without getting into a string of adjectives: Four piece instro band, lots of reverb, Fender equipment, poppy tunes that you can dance to... sounds like a surf band to me.

Cosmik: Has Pollo been inspired and influenced by The Mermen?

Ferenc: Jono and I had seen The Mermen when they were a real surf band, playing trad covers and before Jim [Thomas, guitar] had the huge racks of equipment. I think that that was when we decided we should get a band together ourselves. And we still go to their shows and occasionally jam on some of their songs. Chris really digs the Mermen too.

Cosmik: What's the instro scene like in the Bay Area. Is it active?

Ferenc: I would say that it is musically alive, in the sense that a great many musicians are attracted to it. I am not sure how big the audience really is, though. All of the college stations in the area play surf music regularly. In August, Pollo Del Mar and Brazil 2001 hosted a show with The Aquamen, The Torpedoes, The Berzerkers, Kelp, and The Sub-Mersians and we had a 200 plus turnout. There are plenty of bands around here playing instro: The Swamis, The Aqua Velvets, Splashback, Huge, The Tube Sharks, Jumbo Shrimp, The Jaguars; it is a very long list.

Cosmik: Do you listen to much music from outside the instro scene? Do you get into ska or Armenian Ice Disco or anything like that?

Ferenc: I tape Phil Dirt's radio show every week. I spent about three years listening only to dub, ska and roots reggae, and I still dig that stuff. I love classical from Mozart to Stravinsky. Bebop jazz or cowboy songs. I like the crap that gets played on the radio. I have almost no taste when it comes to what I listen to, as long as it is being played by humans. I think I can always find something worthwhile in almost any piece of music, even if it is only a passing phrase that lasts for half a bar.

Cosmik: Do you ever see a band doing something you've never done or even heard and then go home and work it into something you can use with Pollo Del Mar?

Ferenc: "Insecticide" was specifically written after seeing an Insect Surfers show, although Dave Arnson points out that "Insecticide" sounds nothing like one of his songs. Oh well. "Playa Pistola" was a pointed attempt to do the Morricone thing. Mostly the influences come out when arranging the songs. The jam section of "Pearl Diver" owes a great deal to Television's "Marquee Moon." And I like the way classical music often has so many different parts coexisting. So, in the chorus of our song "The Blue Rider," the bass is playing one melody, Jono is playing arpeggiating chords, and I am doing a third melody on top. In my opinion, too often the bass, especially in a four piece band, is relegated to just playing the roots of the chords, when there is this huge frequency range just waiting for melodic activity.

Cosmik: That can be a double edged sword, though. You obviously have it worked out by the final mix, but do you ever listen to a playback and say "the bass is damned interesting, but we lost the bottom of the tune?"

Ferenc: Well, you can't do it all the time, but if you do have the bass play a melody it can be very rich. I love the sound of Jeff's fretless. Sometimes it sounds like he can talk with it. I would like to have Jeff overdub his parts in harmony and octaves in some places, but our producer Gary Mankin said it would just be turning the mix to muck. And he would be right.

Cosmik: Probably, but it's a nice thought. What's your main axe?

Ferenc: I play an Ibanez Talman with three lipstick tube-type pickups. The body is made out of space-age resin-pulp or something, and it looks like a melted Jaguar. Very post-atomic.

Cosmik: How is it set up? If somebody out there wants to approximate your sound... AND WE NEVER RECOMMEND COPPING EVERYTHING, KIDS... how would they set the guitar up?

Ferenc: I put jumbo-jumbo frets on, string it with .012s, and always use the neck position pick-up.

Cosmik: What effects are you going through?

Ferenc: I use a Fulltone distortion box, then a Roger Mayer Axis Fuzz and a Roland digital delay, with a tap footpedal. Then, of course, into the tank reverb!

Cosmik: And then into... what amp?

Ferenc: Right now I am using a Fender Super Reverb, 'cause I liked Dave Wronski's [Jon & The Nightriders] tone so much. I still don't sound like Dave though.

Cosmik: Why did you choose all these particular pieces of equipment? What were you after that they could give you, exactly?

Ferenc: Well, the tank reverb is a must for surf. Aside from the real fat wet reverb, it also gives another tube pre-amplification stage. I use the Fulltone when I need a little extra cajones for solos, and the Mayer Axis for over the top Davie Allen style fuzz. I like the Roland delay because it is so compact and I can connect a tap footswitch to it so that my delay speed is always in time with the tempo of the song. It's not an Echoplex, but it requires a lot less maintenance.

Cosmik: Amen! We should probably explain, for the non-musicians reading this, that an Echoplex is a semi-ancient device that used a tape loop to create echo. You changed the distance between the record and playback heads to get different echo speeds. What's the trade-off for not going Echoplex? Warmth?

Ferenc: Yeah, I miss the warmth of the Echoplex. The "warmth" is actually a logarithmic roll off of the high end with each repeat. It would be so easy for Roland to put a little EQ knob on their delays to do the same thing. Also,if they could figure out how to add a little tape hiss, that would be cool too.

Cosmik: Ah, perfect. I wanted to talk to you about tape hiss. Well, sort of, anyway. When we did The Great Surf Summit interviews, you brought up the subject of white noise and its approximation of waves crashing on the beach. I've quoted you several times since because it was a revelation to me, personally, and I think it's probably very accurate. I want to get into it a bit further, though. First of all, who are some of the bands that you think utilize this better than others? Which bands reach that part of your subconscious?

Ferenc: The real question is, what kinds of sound can produce a trance inducing state. I think the answer depends on your society, although some sounds are like a Jungian archetype in terms of their universal effect. The white noise factor is one. And depending on who you are, tribal drumming, the dub techniques of Jamaica or the Rave DJs, or the rapturous singing of a choir could be psychotropic. How come some people turn into whirling dervishes while listening to the Grateful Dead? Beyond me, but crank up the reverb and I am gone into that weird place that is suggested by the artificial ambiance. Through some divine alignment, surf music and reverb were connected. So, for me, most surf music sends that trippy sonic envelope. I recently heard this magic in the the trip-hop of Portishead, the Blood and Fire series of dub, Bill Laswell's Aisha Kandisha Jarring Effects, and Paul Haslinger's music. It really helps if it is instrumental music, or with minimal vocal.

Cosmik: Okay, this is exactly what I've been thinking about lately. Is it a single element in a sound or a combined effect that hooks you? Is it the white noise in Davie Allen's fuzzed out guitar or the overall wall of sound from his band?

Ferenc: I think every band is a unique alchemical formula. Sometimes the players brew perfectly and produce a divine experience. It is kind of weird to be talking about Davie Allen in religious terms, but he definitely taps into a primal urge. The alchemical thing strongly relates to surf music and reverb. Reverb is an excellent place for players to blend their sounds together in an atemporal or extradimensional place. It has been, ignorantly, said that the first wave of surf musicians were inept instrumentalists; but by mixing their tones in that wet bath of mystery, they melded together to form a focused sound.

Cosmik: Have you ever written with the goal of specifically reaching that corner of the listener's mind?

Ferenc: Well, it is hard to say what is going to activate each listeners mind. I try to write to activate my own mind, and if that resonates with anybody else on the planet, then I have achieved artistic communication. If I can just get it to resonate with the other members of the band, I have achieved nirvana! Obviously, surf music does reach a lot of people. Pollo Del Mar was put together with more of the intention of getting people to dance than producing a hypnotic effect. Hopefully that is a subliminal side effect, and it is certainly more important when recording, and the listener doesn't have the benefit of the live music experience.

Cosmik: There's not too many genres that I can't get into some of, but I've never been able to stand even 30 seconds of Industrial. Different sound, different reaction.

Ferenc: I don't care for modern R&B, the Blues, The Carpenters, Lawrence Welk. I think that about 95% of everything is total crap, but that other 5 is such a pleasure.

Cosmik: I've been listening to your CD a lot lately, and I have some questions about the songs and the diversity from track to track. The very first time I played it, I heard the first track ("Teleport '63") and thought "hey, they're playing trad!" Which surprised me. The more I hear it, the less I think it's all that trad. Did you approach it as trad at first?

Ferenc: "Teleport" has had an interesting evolution, or devolution. I wrote it with my brother Peter in 1983, and while the intention was to do a surf song, the production was typical of music at that time. We used a Linn drum machine laying down a quarter note kick drum, and my brother was getting into guitar synthesizer so the original version had all of these wild, textured melodies. When we started Pollo Del Mar, Peter was the drummer and "Teleport" was one of the first songs we did. Jono and I put our twangy guitars on top, rearranged the bridge with a real trad feel, but it still has a "thump thump thump thump" bass and kick pattern. We renamed it "Teleport '63" so it wouldn't be confused with the '83 version.

Cosmik: (Laughs) Works for me. "Playa Pistola" is another one that feels traditional on the surface, but the boundaries are being stretched underneath.

Ferenc: Aside from the great groove that Chris and Jeff laid down, what I like about "Playa Pistola" is that the chord structure was totally derived from the melody. Unfortunately, I was so enamored with the melody, that I never wrote any harmonic changes, so for movement the song relies on modulations and instrumental variation. Oops.

Cosmik: Sometimes it seems like the fretless bass guides the band into new territory. How does playing with Jeff change what you would normally do in a surf band?

Ferenc: Just playing with Jeff changes the rules on every level. I really can't say enough about what he adds... It isn't just the fretless because he does the same thing with his regular bass. He makes the music musical.

Cosmik: What's the story behind "2314-B"?

Ferenc: Well, I wasn't around when it happened so all my info is second hand. In 1966, when my brother Peter was 15, he left home to join a band called The Sidetrack. The band moved to New York City and became the house band at the Cafe Wha? in Greenwich Village. The songwriters in The Sidetrack had written "2314-B" as a greatly orchestrated piece using what was basically a blues band line-up: Hammond organ, harmonica, guitar, bass and drums, as their symphony. They played at the Cafe Wha? every night for years and the 11 minute "2314-B" was always the highpoint of their set. Eventually they had some label interest and cut an amazing album, but then had some bad legal advice and never signed the contract. About 300 of the demo LPs were pressed, and I believe that they are highly sought after by collectors.

Cosmik: That's one of those songs where noise adds an entire dimension to the sound... like a whole separate space.

Ferenc: In the bridge section, I wanted to have some guitar feedback as a bed of tension under Jono's lead line. But as I was doing the overdub, the guitar was feeding back so wildly that it started to sound like a Theremin, so we pushed it a little harder and this huge overtone series started screaming out. It was a very fulfilling moment.

Cosmik: How much overdubbing is there on the album? I hear a lot of textures in "The Whammy."

[Pictured: The band hangin' out with Bill Gates.]

Ferenc: Not too much. Any keyboard that you hear was overdubbed because Jeff couldn't play bass and keys at the same time. Actually "The Whammy" is one of the songs the least overdubs--two guitars, bass and drums. I think the stuff that you hear is all of the reverbs meshing in a weird psycho-acoustic cesspool. "2314-B" and "Erik Estrada" probably have the most overdubs because we wanted so many guitar tones for the different sections.

Cosmik: "Erik Estrada" is a beautiful tune. The part that blows me away is your tone on the slow solo. Was there a little bit of Santana influence behind the tone?

Ferenc: If it sounds like Santana, I think I was just aping the album rock thing. That song is so tongue in cheek, from the lyric on down. Don't get me wrong, we enjoy it and play the hell out of the song, but I am definitely not making any soulful facial contortions while ponderously wanking on the guitar.

Cosmik: What's Jono saying during the Spanish rap on that song? It sounds almost like a cop pulling Erik Estrada over for speeding or something.

Ferenc: It is a totally un-PC story narrated by a guy who is pulled over by a CHP officer. He claims that he is a poor man who can't afford to pay the ticket. However, his wife is enamored with the cop's tight uniform and mirrored shades. Jono says at the end, "Por favor, toma mi esposa" which is the old Henny Youngman line, "Take my wife, please."

Cosmik: When you come out of the fast section at the end, it reminded me... just for a second... of It's A Beautiful Day. Don't hit me!

Ferenc: I am not sure who that band is, but if you are comparing us to them, they must have had a very short career.

Cosmik: "Gate" starts with a chant that sounds like monks in the catacombs. What are you saying?

Ferenc: The translation is "Gone, gone beyond, gone beyond gone, the Buddha has risen" I really like that part about being "gone beyond gone." Something to aspire to.

Cosmik: "Snow Crash" is my favorite Pollo track, personally. I think it pushes the envelope the farthest. That phrase gets used too much, but in your case, I think it's necessary to use it. How do you feel about pushing the envelope of surf music, and where else would you like to see it go?

Ferenc: "Snow Crash", like "Gate," is another song that just flows it's own course. But I don't know what to say about pushing the envelope. We are just doing what we do. I have a great love for trad surf music, and for the bands who are doing the trad thing now. That is a funny question because we really don't have an agenda.

Cosmik: I think The Mermen and The Insect Surfers are the only bands that are really in your corner of the 3rd wave, the only ones approaching from the same angles. Are there others I haven't caught yet?

Ferenc: That is great company to be associated with! But I doubt that there is anyone that you haven't heard of. So many of the "3rd Wave" bands bring something to the music... The Berzerkers' rhythmic, rootsy vibe. The exceptional musicianship of The Penetrators, The Boss Martians and Los Mel-tones. Brazil 2001 infusing surf tones with crunch pop vocals. The many moods of The Aqua-Velvets. The Reventlos are really out there. The Mermen are getting into an almost tribal trance thing, and the Insect Surfers with their super-rock energy. The list goes on and on. And when the surf music from the sixties gets analyzed on a band by band basis, you can see that there is a really great variety of moods and tones too. So I think that when some musicologist looks back on the 3rd Wave of surf music, they will be able to see this group of bands as a whole body rather than a bunch of splinter factions.

Cosmik: Do you have any plans for after the surf thing dies down again, or do you think it's not going to?

Ferenc: No big plans. Jono and I would like to keep it going as long as possible. With all the other factors of our lives, this is like the 401K for joy.

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